Meta-discussion about talking about Linux (was Re: [NBLUG/talk] Boot Loader problem)

Justin Thiessen thiessen at sonic.net
Tue May 4 09:22:30 PDT 2004


On Mon, May 03, 2004 at 12:15:27PM -0700, sms at sonic.net wrote:
> 

<snip>

> 
> All I mean to say is that the "roll your own" attitude is pervasive,
> and a problem (it's a problem I realize that I have contributed to,
> myself); and perhaps it needs to be pruned from time to time.  It's
> not even clear to me that your reply WAS an instance in need of such
> "pruning"... it's just not clear to me that it's NOT.
> 
> As I mentioned last rant, I've run into this myself... and I was doing
> shellscripts & kernel-makes under SunOS 4.0.x 10-15 years ago, and
> have been doing sundry UNIXoid stuff (more or less SysAdmin'ish) since
> then.
> 
> 
> > Agreed.  Which is why I decided to try to invoke more discussion on the
> > part  of the user and the group.  We all know that the questioner has
> > posted  homework questions to this list in the past.  Not a bad thing,
> > but learning  must take place in the college course arena, there are
> > course mailing lists  that the user can ask questions on.... I am a
> > member of that particular course mailing list and the questions were
> > asked there.
> 
> On a "take each question as it comes" front, I see no particular reason
> to hold the issue of *other* questions being inappropriate as a reason
> not to answer *this* question.  OTOH, we're all human & I've certainly
> been unwilling to answer questions for someone who's previously shown
> that they can't even be bothered to do "due diligence" to find their own
> answers... and, of course, passing a class (for academic credit) on the
> basis of what a _list_ knows is usually not considered "kosher."
> 
> I guess a key question, IMHO, is "What *IS* the RTFM 'due diligence' for
> Linux?"  Back in the '90s (particularly early/mid decade) I think the
> bar was pretty high; if you fubar'ed your box, it wasn't _reasonable_ to
> expect much help unless you had clearly already done quite a bit of your
> own digging (and not just digging the hole you were in, but demonstrated
> your efforts to dig your own way out).  Complex questions were often held
> to be completely-answered with the reply "RTFM."
> 
> But increasingly, Linux is being touted as a "viable" platform for non-
> hobbiest use.  Increasingly, "RTFM" is an anti-answer, not merely "not
> an answer" but actively harmful to the Linux community, many of whom are
> (or hope to be) making a living by making viable business configurations
> in a timely fashion.
> 
> Not, of course, that nblug-talk is collectively obligated to offer a suite
> of professional consulting-services with 24/7 availability and a 15-minute
> guaranteed first-response time...   };^D>

<snip>

I think an unspoken part of the issue is simply the individual variation
in information-gathering tendencies.  To (greatly) simplify:

Some people look up things on their own.
Some people ask other people for answers.


I fall, rather drasticly, into the first camp, but no everyone does.  For
a long time, I was seriously annoyed by people asking questions they could
have just *looked up* themselves.  But I've come to accept that not everyone
works that way.  I still try, whenever practical, to direct people to 
_sources_ of answers rather than just provide answers, especially if the 
answer is too complex to state in a sentence or two.  Hopefully (to use
a much-abused metaphor) I am teaching them to fish rather than just handing 
them a nicely filleted salmon.

It's a touchy issue.  Some people are very offended when you point them
at a resource rather than just providing the answer.  But realistically,
when someone asks you to provide an answer, they are asking for you to
spend your time on their behalf.  In the volunteerism-oriented linux/
free software commmunity, people are compensated, at best, by recognition.
We all have to balance out how much help we are willing to provide other
people in our own spare time.

A sense of duty to give back to the community as a whole by providing
help for newbies is often invoked when this issue comes up.  I can understand
why people feel this way, but again, this is a very personal decision, and
it's nuts to think that everyone sees things the same way, or feels the same
level of obligation.  There are no set of linux bylaws that demand you
help granny cross the street and install ALSA if you've ever bought a
RedHat CD.

Part of joining the Linux community is developing the ability to educate
yourself.  It's irrational to expect the typical newcomer to read C code
and figure everything out that way, but it's perfectly reasonable (IMO)
to expect him/her to be able to use a search engine and plow through
a HOWTO or 2 before asking for more help.  Sure, REALIZING the level of
information out there is half the battle, and many times people come to
mailing lists or newsgroups not even knowing that TLDP exists, or that
umpteen thousands of previous people have probably run into the same
problems as them and posted about it on USENET.  Once pointed at a few
resources, though, I expect people to take at least a few minutes trying
to find, read and digest what's already been written before asking for
help.  

One way that people new to the community can give back (so to speak) is by
educating themselves as much as is practically (and I know that definitions
of "practically" will vary...) possible.  In a largely-unpaid, volunteerism-
oriented community, self-reliance is the order of the day.  Look at how
non-profit clubs and other such organizations operate, and how often problems
arise when the ratio of passive members to active volunteers exceeds a 
certain level.  

As one of you (sorry that I don't remember which) rightly pointed out, the 
average user of linux has changed a lot in the last few years, and the 
skill- and mind-set of such users is rather different than when linux was 
very much just a hobby OS.  So yes, it's probably unrealistic to expect 
someone running a business and using linux in a general desktop capacity to 
spend as much time sorting out configuration and other issues as a linux
user 5-10 years ago would have.

This is why there are commerical linux vendors who offer service contracts.
I won't pretend to judge the quality of such service, but that's why they 
exist.

Ok, ok.  This is getting rather far astray from talking about homework 
questions asked on a mailing list.  Homework, especially, should be solved
on one's own.

</soabbox off>

Justin Thiessen
thiessen @ sonic.net






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