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<p>Hi Rick, et al, <br>
</p>
<p>Thanks for the in depth responses! I was hoping to see you at the
meeting last night as what you wrote was so interesting that I had
more questions after I read your email than before. Always a good
sign!</p>
<p>- I do understand that Distrowatch is not a direct measure of the
actual users of any given Linux distro, but their page-hit ranking
is the closest thing I've ever seen to an updated count, even if
it is just indicating an interest in a particular distro. Is there
another way to measure the number of users of a Linux distro?
Linux Mint has a community site (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://community.linuxmint.com/"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://community.linuxmint.com/</a>)
that lists about 36,000 website users, about 15,000 hardware
users, and other random stats. And maybe the other big distros
also track their users that contribute to the forums or fill out
informal surveys, but I have not seen a ranking like Distrowatch's
anywhere else. <br>
</p>
<p>- my thinking on the timeliness of updates sprung from the idea
that more users leads to more developers & funds, more
developers and funds leads to more energy available to do the work
of packaging/testing apps. Although, now that I think more about
it, Clem at Linux Mint has seemed to have a relaxed attitude
towards updates and security matters too (at least until the LM
website got hacked several years back), so it may also be a
mindset of the core development team of each distro. <br>
</p>
<p>- according to <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://community.linuxmint.com/"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://community.linuxmint.com/</a>
LMDE is about 9% of Linux Mint users. <br>
</p>
<p>- thanks for the clarification on the relationship between *buntu
and Debian when it comes to package management. While I don't
understand what binaries are well enough to get the concept of
*buntu and Debian binaries not being compatible, I was mostly
basing my understanding that Linux Mint is *buntu based, but uses
Debian package management from the Distrowatch categories (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint</a>).
<br>
</p>
<p>We did talk a bit about which distros people use among the NBLUG
members that showed up to last night's monthly meeting. There
seemed to be some interest in Arch Linux, so Derek: it looks like
EndeavourOS is the most "popular" Arch Linux based distribution
right now (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=endeavour"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=endeavour</a>)
and it looks to use a rolling release model and pacman for package
management. Maybe worth a look if you are concerned about
Slackware (#15! - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=slackware"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=slackware</a>)
crumbling should Patrick Volkerding ever get hit by a bus.
Slackware apparently uses TXZ for package management - I haven't
even heard of that one!</p>
<p>There was also an overview of some of the basics of NBLUG, which
I found really helpful as a new member/board member:</p>
<p>- we are not an incorporated nonprofit organization</p>
<p>- we have no bank account and the treasurer is Matt, but I don't
believe that I have met him yet<br>
</p>
<p>- prior to the pandemic, NBLUG has met at Sonic's offices in
Santa Rosa and O'Reilly's offices in Sebastopol and it would be
nice to have an indoor space available for when the weather turns
colder and rainier as well as the ability to have a screen and do
presentations</p>
<p>- the NBLUG server is hosted at Sonic by a member</p>
<p>- we aren't exactly sure how many people are currently on the
talk and announce mailing lists</p>
<p>- NBLUG is not a local chapter of a larger LUG organization. This
is partly why we don't have a formal membership/nonprofit
structure and do not ask for dues. This point was actually
shocking to me as I had assumed that NBLUG was somewhat like
another group that I am a member of, the North Bay Electric Auto
Association (<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://nbeaa.org/"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://nbeaa.org/</a>), which is
a local chapter of the national Electric Vehicle Association (<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.myeva.org/"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.myeva.org/</a>) that
manages some membership functions and provides some resources. The
NBEAA has bylaws/standards that are provided by the national EVA
and that we have to meet in order to stay affiliated (pretty
simple to do though). There doesn't seem to be any functioning
national/international LUG and I went through a lot of dead links
trying to even find a list of local groups. I did find <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.linuxusersgroups.org/"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.linuxusersgroups.org/</a>
but it is pretty out of date and NBLUG doesn't seem to be listed
there. That seems like an enormous opportunity to do some
organizing in the area of LUGs that could really pay dividends in
terms of increased usage & interest in Linux and membership
for the LUGs. Maybe others know more about this area than I do
though...</p>
<p>Over and out!</p>
<p>Brad<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:mailman.3.1657652401.22961.talk@nblug.org">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Message: 1
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 15:45:51 -0700
From: Rick Moen <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rick@linuxmafia.com"><rick@linuxmafia.com></a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:talk@nblug.org">talk@nblug.org</a>
Subject: Re: [NBLUG/talk] talk Digest, Vol 199, Issue 4
Message-ID: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:20220711224551.GK13985@linuxmafia.com"><20220711224551.GK13985@linuxmafia.com></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Quoting Brad Morrison (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bradmorrison@sonic.net">bradmorrison@sonic.net</a>):
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I use Linux Mint partly because it is ranked on DistroWatch as the
third most popular Linux distro
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint">https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint</a>), so I assumed
that more users translates to more frequent updates.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Doesn't follow, really.
There are lots of reasons why the timeliness of updates has no
connection to the number of users. However, it's also the case that
DistroWatch's distro ranking isn't, and cannot be, based on number of
users. As the display's name says, it's a "Page Hit Ranking". It's
just a summary of the number of times someone searched for a particular
named distro using the Distrowatch site search engine.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">LM does appear to use a fixed release model instead of rolling.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Both the _regular_ edition of Linux Mint (compatible with Ubuntu's
repos) and Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE) are released-based rather
than rolling, yes.
LMDE doesn't have a separate entry on Distrowatch, so it's not included
in the "Page Hit Ranking" list. Searching for it brings up Linux Mint,
so I just incremented LM's Distrowatch "popularity" by 1. ;->
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I haven't really thought about it before, but it looks like Linux Mint
is a Ubuntu based distro (whatever that means)
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">It means that Clément Lefèbvre and friends started with the then-current
release of Kubuntu 6.10 in 2006 and fixed them with various desktop
enhancements and saner DE choices, and each LM release is
binary-compatible with a concurrent *buntu release.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">but uses Debian for its package management - ?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">No. *buntu is closely based on Debian and is a persistent fork from it
(but is no longer binary-compatible), and therefore *buntu uses lots and
lots of Debian-standard administrative tools including the distinctive
dpkg and apt package-management tools and the .deb package format.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Do the distros usually package the apps themselves or
does Ubuntu/Debian do that?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Yes. But sometimes a distro exists as a binary-compatible variation on
a more-established distro, compatible with the established distro's
package repositories but adding some of its own bespoke packages to
create something different or specialised.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">We can talk about this more at the NBLUG meeting on Tuesday, but I am
curious what Linux distros other members use and why they prefer
</pre>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Yup, an excellent topic for the meeting.
And by the way, are you aware of the #nblug IRC channel? It's usually
at least a little bit busier than the talk list. Not to discourage
anyone from using the talk list, but... well, not many people seem to
post here.
- Derek
On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 04:28:14 -0700, Brad Morrison
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bradmorrison@sonic.net"><bradmorrison@sonic.net></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #007cff;">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Thanks for the explanation of my options Derek! I do tend to like to
use the latest software/package versions, but I have heard enough
other people at NBLUG complain about what they felt were useless
changes to the user interface of certain packages/apps that they use
to know that many people do not update as frequently as I like to do.
I use Linux Mint partly because it is ranked on DistroWatch as the
third most popular Linux distro
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint">https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint</a>), so I assumed
that more users translates to more frequent updates. LM does appear
to use a fixed release model instead of rolling. I haven't really
thought about it before, but it looks like Linux Mint is a Ubuntu
based distro (whatever that means), but uses Debian for its package
management - ? Do the distros usually package the apps themselves or
does Ubuntu/Debian do that?
We can talk about this more at the NBLUG meeting on Tuesday, but I am
curious what Linux distros other members use and why they prefer
_____.
Brad
On 7/6/22 12:00, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:talk-request@nblug.org">talk-request@nblug.org</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #007cff;">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Send talk mailing list submissions to
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:talk@nblug.org">talk@nblug.org</a>
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://nblug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk">https://nblug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk</a>
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:talk-request@nblug.org">talk-request@nblug.org</a>
You can reach the person managing the list at
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:talk-owner@nblug.org">talk-owner@nblug.org</a>
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of talk digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: preferences on software package versions, thoughts on
Snap/Flatpak/Appimage (Derek B. Noonburg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 15:00:12 -0700
From: "Derek B. Noonburg"<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:derekn@foolabs.com"><derekn@foolabs.com></a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:To:talk@nblug.org">To:talk@nblug.org</a>
Subject: Re: [NBLUG/talk] preferences on software package versions,
thoughts on Snap/Flatpak/Appimage
Message-ID: <20220705150012.0db9bc45@numbat>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
If you want the latest versions of applications, your choices come
down to:
(1) Run a Linux distribution that updates things often, which
probably means a rolling release distro. Oh, and you also need to
make sure that the distro packages the particular apps you want.
(2) Run binaries built by the application developers. Lately those
have been moving toward flatpak/appimage/snap/whatever. I haven't
personally played with any of those formats, but they feel pretty
kludgey to me -- "All these Linux distros have different library
versions... I know, we'll package up all of the libraries (almost a
mini Linux distro) with our app." I guess that approach does "fix"
the problem, but ick.
This also has the downside of requiring you to make sure the apps
get updated -- as you pointed out.
(3) Build the applications yourself from source. This avoids
library version problems, but obviously requires some extra work.
Maybe worth it if you have a small number of applications that you
really care about keeping current, maybe not.
Also, some applications are pretty easy to build from source, and
some are a major pain in the butt. It's kind of hard to tell until
you actually try to build them.
This has the same update problem as option 2.
It would be nice if the Linux folks could settle on a single desktop
distribution, so that application developers could simply package
for that distro. But:<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://xkcd.com/927/">https://xkcd.com/927/</a>
Given all of that, do you really need the absolute latest versions
of those applications? For system libraries and common attack
targets (web browsers), you clearly want to apply security updates
promptly. Centralized system updates are great for that. For other
things... how many security updates (as opposed to bug fix and
feature updates) does FreeCAD (for example) receive?
If you really do want the updates -- maybe you ran into a bug in
FreeCAD that's been fixed, maybe Mint has a particularly old
version, or whatever -- if there are only a couple applications
like that, then maybe it's worth considering option 2 (or 3) for
just those applications.
- Derek
On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 12:50:04 -0700
Brad Morrison<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bradmorrison@sonic.net"><bradmorrison@sonic.net></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #007cff;">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Hi all,
As I'm fairly new to Linux, I'm sure that there are reasons for why
the software packages in the Ubuntu repositories are often not the
latest versions available via the various projects' websites. I
tend to prefer to not use Flakpak/Flathub, after reading a blog
post from Clem, the project lead of Linux Mint (which is the
distro I use) about his concerns about Snap
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3906">https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3906</a>). But I have noticed that for
both FreeCAD and gnuCash, the Flatpak versions are considerably
more recent/updated than the "Ubuntu" version (is that what you
call it?) also available in the Linux Mint software manager.https://www.linuxusersgroups.org/
FreeCAD: 18.4 for the Ubuntu version v. 19.4 for the Flathub
version -https://www.freecadweb.org/
gnuCash: 3.8b for the Ubuntu version v. 4.10+ for the Flathub
version -https://www.gnucash.org/
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://www.gnucash.org/"><https://www.gnucash.org/></a>
I could also download the appimage from the FreeCAD website, but I
like centrally managed updates.
Does anyone else have any thoughts to share on this? Preferences?
And I've also wondered how the desktop version of Signal is set up
so that the package is installed via the Linux Mint software
manager, but the updates come via the web (from Signal). Is that
another approach to similar issues?
Thanks!</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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